Subject: Re: IETF 72 --> Dublin == golf!

From: Pekka Savola <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 10:18:11 +0200 (EET)

On Thu, 31 Jan 2008, Dean Willis wrote:
> And no, I don't play golf, which appears to be the entire focus of
> this sort of location.

This could be an opportunity to do something different.  (Though I 
agree that having the IETF on a location 15km from downtown could have 
some challenges.)

Ok, hands up (off-list) everyone who's interested in an IETF golf 
competition or just casual golf :-) ?

-- 
Pekka Savola                 "You each name yourselves king, yet the
Netcore Oy                    kingdom bleeds."
Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings
_______________________________________________
Ietf mailing list
[email-masked]
http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf

---

From: Iljitsch van Beijnum <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 09:41:51 +0100

On 1 feb 2008, at 4:37, Dean Willis wrote:

> Excuse me, but isn't this in the boonies way outside town? Are we
> going to be stuck in a $200 a night hotel with no reasonable
> alternative accommodations eating vastly overpriced hotel food and
> facing a one-hour commute to anywhere else?

I agree that this is not ideal, but I was in much the same position in  
Paris: no hotels in my price range near the congress center so I had  
to commute halfway across Paris every day. (And the food was expensive  
pretty much everywhere.)

It seems that all or at least most hotels in Dublin are in the city  
center, which means a significant bus or taxi ride back and forth.  
However, Dublin has lots of bed and breakfasts (I think I saw half of  
them on my first trip to Dublin, when I didn't book a place to sleep  
in advance and it turned out to be the date of a delayed saint  
Patrick's day because of the foot and mouth disease). You may be able  
to find one closer to the conference hotel.

For anyone who will be staying some extra days I suggest doing that  
closer to the city center, which will probably save you money and that  
way it's easy to explore Dublin by foot, which is absolutely worth a  
blister or two. And I highly recommend the train ride between Dublin  
and Belfast.
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---

From: Ross Finlayson <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 02:23:39 -0800

>facing a one-hour commute to anywhere else?

How easy will it be to commute between the hotel and central Dublin 
(e.g., if we want to eat lunch or dinner somewhere other than the 
hotel)?  What transportation options are available, and how long will the take?

         Ross.

---

From: Jeroen Massar <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 11:57:55 +0100

> hotel)?  What transportation options are available, and how long will the take?

Bus -> "cheap" (in a sense), but takes about 45mins (ex waiting time)
Taxi -> "expensive", takes about 30 mins

The bus is funny btw, as it only runs once every while, in Dublin that 
will mean that they come at random times and might just not come, or 
there might be two busses directly after each other.

The ride is a nice one though as you are guided through large parts of 
Dublin because of it. For the people with a bit more cash, they have 
heli-pads at that hotel, so you might be able to pull an Oracle and just 
fly in and out, but you should be able to pay the taxi then too ;)

Oh and one major thing not to forget: umbrella's!
No sunshine in that part of the country (unless you are very lucky to 
accidentally hit some sunshine). For sunshine you will have to go south, 
or west, that is, of the country, not of the city ;)
There is one trick around it though: when it starts raining, just jump 
into a pub, take a beer, wait till it is over and go to the next pub 
before it starts raining again, that should keep you busy. For the 
golfers: don't forget to take along a nice wetsuit to keep you dry ;)

Museums are mostly gratis/free and actually pretty good, except for 
instance Trinity College, if you want to see the Book of Kells, the 
Library above it (The Long room, aka The Jedi Archives*) which is 
included in that tour is more worth it though. Don't forget to crash the 
local Eddy Rockets for a Oreo milkshake and a fish&chips place for a 
battered mars bar.

Enjoy ;)

Greets,
  Jeroen

* = http://www.irish-architecture.com/news/2002/000238.htm

---

From: "Greg Shepherd" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 04:08:00 -0800

> competition or just casual golf :-) ?

Sorry, no. I'm bringing my bike. :D

Greg

---

From: Scott Brim <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 08:26:42 -0500

> facing a one-hour commute to anywhere else?

I've started to explore places to stay.  For example the first I came
up with is the Hotel Ibis Dublin West.  They claim it is on a tram
line to the city center (~20 minutes) and about 8 km from the IETF
site, for 86 Euros.  Looking ...

Scott

---

From: Stephen Farrell <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 13:09:11 +0000

Ross Finlayson wrote:
> hotel)?  

You couldn't make lunch in the city centre from citywest. Dinner
should be ok, even if it might take a bit longer than usual. There
are also some dinner options closer to the hotel. I'll try to
post some info somewhere before the meeting happens.

 > What transportation options are available, and how long will the take?

FWIW, I plan to drive out there some morning in the next few
weeks. I'm not at all sure what the traffic is like heading that
way (out of the city) in the mornings.

S.

---

From: John C Klensin <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 08:43:12 -0500

--On Friday, 01 February, 2008 11:57 +0100 Jeroen Massar
<[email-masked]> wrote:

>> (e.g., if we want to eat lunch or dinner somewhere other than
>> the  hotel)?  What transportation options are available, and
>> how long will the take?
> 

If even a taxi takes 60 minutes round trip, am I correct in
assuming that the options for lunch not supplied by the meeting
facility are non-existent?  

If so, I think we have repeatedly discussed a meeting-site
guideline that prohibited sites with that property for at least
three reasons:

	(i) If the facility can't handle the load, the meetings
	are disrupted, with no recourse.
	
	(ii) If one doesn't like their selections, there are no
	options.
	
	(iii) Expensive facilities tend to have expensive
	restaurants and other facilities.

Oh, but there are golf courses.  Guess that makes it ok for both
the non-golfers and the golfers who will be spending all their
time in meeting rooms and figuring out where to eat.

Here we go again.

Could I request that the IESG schedule one old-fashioned,
open-ended, evening plenary?  :-(

    john

---

From: Ray Pelletier <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 11:12:50 -0500

>post some info somewhere before the meeting happens.
We are also working on an evening shuttle for Monday through Thursday 
from the hotel to the Temple Bar area of Dublin.

Ray

---

From: Janet P Gunn <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 11:23:55 -0500

A quick google search  finds multiple restaurants in the villages of 
Saggart (adjacent to the golf course) and Rathcoole (2k away)

---

From: Jari Arkko <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 18:28:59 +0200

Dean,

> We should know by now that isolated resorts ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE as  
> meeting locations.
>   

Er... like Dallas or San Diego?

I've never been to Dublin and I don't know what exists on site. Maybe
some locals could tell us? Also, as has happened in a number of IETFs so
far (like in Dallas), Ray is scheduling a bus service for us. More
generally, before we criticize meeting site selections, lets at least
first figure out what the true conditions really are.

I look forward to going to Dublin.

Jari

---

From: "Bound, Jim" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 16:41:16 +0000

Jari,

Your an IESG great rep but your just another bozo on the bus on this list.  Your authoritarian tone is not pleasing at least how I take it.  Let people vent I just hit the 'd' key and so can you.  But thanks for your thoughts as all others.

The point is the facilities are forcing people to travel extra at the site who don't like the site location to live while traveling and I consider the bus not an option and will figure it out as basing my non work hours depending on IETF community transit is not an option for me I would rather stick pins in my eye lids.

130 Euros and the cost of registration is not cheap anymore at the IETF we should be trying to find sites within city center for the future where I can just walk out of the meeting venue and do my individual thing in life when IETF work is over.

That being said this is what IAOC is doing and I for one say we make the best of it and I will do that for me.

NB; Ray this is not personal or against IAOC at all.  We know you do the best you can with the budget you have. But being in the city anytime gives us all more options after IETF work.  I for one do not come at all to the IETF for any social things not even a consideration, this is business and business travel.  Thanks for the hard work.

/jim

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On
> Behalf Of Jari Arkko
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:29 AM
> To: Dean Willis
> Cc: IETF Discussion
> Subject: Re: IETF 72 --> Dublin!
>
> Dean,
>
> I've never been to Dublin and I don't know what exists on
> site. Maybe some locals could tell us? Also, as has happened
> in a number of IETFs so far (like in Dallas), Ray is
> scheduling a bus service for us. More generally, before we
> criticize meeting site selections, lets at least first figure
> out what the true conditions really are.
>

---

From: Stephen Farrell <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 16:42:41 +0000

Jari Arkko wrote:
> some locals could tell us? 

Actually, I think the hotel should be good for the meeting.

I'll post some info about other local stuff closer to the time.

 > Also, as has happened in a number of IETFs so
> far (like in Dallas), Ray is scheduling a bus service for us. 

I think that'll help a lot,

Stephen.

---

From: Jari Arkko <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 19:14:42 +0200

Jim,

> Your authoritarian tone is not pleasing at least how I take it.  Let people vent I just hit the 'd' key and so can you.
If there was authoritarian tone, it was by no means intended. For the
record, I DO worry about cost of meeting fees, expensive hotels, travel,
decreasing participation, etc. And yes, people need to vent. However, I
think it would be good to take a little bit of time to figure out what
the site is and what conditions there will be like before we pass
judgment. Stephen promised to send info, Ray already updated us on the
bus situation, people are looking at what restaurants possibly exist
nearby, etc.

Jari

---

From: "Bound, Jim" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 17:22:19 +0000

Jari,

OK.

But the analysis is correct here the bottom line is we are stuck in remote place for example if you had a meeting in the business section of Paris or Washington D.C. your options would be less out of the IETF but this is even more intense being remote.  Sure there are options I have checked.  Travel.  Be good to have IETF bus for those that don't have the funds for taxi or car rentals.  Typically these type of locations are used by orgs that want to isolate their teams for a business meeting that should not be the strategy of the IAOC as input.

/jim

> From: Jari Arkko [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 12:15 PM
> To: Bound, Jim
> Cc: IETF Discussion
> > Your authoritarian tone is not pleasing at least how I take
> it.  Let people vent I just hit the 'd' key and so can you.
> If there was authoritarian tone, it was by no means intended.
> For the record, I DO worry about cost of meeting fees,
> expensive hotels, travel, decreasing participation, etc. And
> yes, people need to vent. However, I think it would be good
> to take a little bit of time to figure out what the site is
> and what conditions there will be like before we pass
> judgment. Stephen promised to send info, Ray already updated
> us on the bus situation, people are looking at what
> restaurants possibly exist nearby, etc.
>
> Jari
>
>

---

From: "James M. Polk" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 11:22:51 -0600

Jari

Dallas was supposed to be New Orleans until a little catastrophe 
called Katrina happened there and a secondary city needed to be found 
with little notice -- so don't bang on that city too hard.

I agree with you on (the Harbor Marriott in) San Diego - which we've 
been to twice

---

From: Ray Pelletier <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 12:39:42 -0500

Bound, Jim wrote:

><snip>
Our first choice is under one-roof, guest rooms and meeting space 
(Minneapolis),  in the city center, but it's not always possible.  We 
want the meeting to be well supported and provide alternatives for the 
attendees.  We will stay focused on that target.
Ray

---

From: Ray Pelletier <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 12:57:15 -0500

GOLDMAN, STUART O (STUART) wrote:

> Folks,
>
>  
>
> I just went to the website to at least grab a room for the time being.
>
>  
>
> I was disappointed to learn that reservations are non cancellable and 
> non refundable!
>
Our contract provides that the reservations are cancellable, refundable 
and substitutes permitted.
I have contacted the hotel to correct the website.
Ray Pelletier
IAD

>  
>
> Please note the following terms & conditions relate to this booking.
>
>  
>
> • Bookings are non refundable and non transferable.
>
> • Cancellations will not be accepted for online bookings
>
> • Check in time : after 1400 hrs
>
> • Check out time : before 1200 hrs
>
> • Rates are per room per night.
>
> • Rates are for accommodation only unless otherwise stated.
>
> • These rates are not available for groups or conferences.
>
> • Rates are non commissionable.
>
> • Management reserve the right to assign guests to rooms in either the 
> Citywest Main or Golf Hotels depending on availability
>
> • For single adult reservations the Management reserve the right to 
> provide guests with a single room instead of double room only in the 
> unlikely event of all double rooms being occupied
>
>  
>
> Stuart Goldman
>
> Alcatel-Lucent
>
> [email-masked]
>
> +1 602 493 8438
>
>  please save a tree by not printing this e-mail.
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf 
> Of Dean Willis
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 8:38 PM
> To: Ray Pelletier
> Cc: IETF Discussion
> On Jan 31, 2008, at 3:56 PM, Ray Pelletier wrote:
>
>> 
>
>> The venue will be the beautiful Citywest Hotel, "Ireland’s premier 
>
>> Conference, Leisure & Golf Resort and one of Europe’s most popular 
>
>> International Conference destinations. The four star Citywest Hotel 
>
>> is only 20km from Dublin airport and 15km from Dublin City Centre." 
>
>> http://www.citywesthotel.com/site/index.aspx
>
>  
>
>  
>
> meeting locations. Even if they're vaguely close to cool places like 
>
> Dublin.
>
>  
>
> It's not too late. Please cancel the meeting now. Even if it costs a 
>
> bunch of money and means we have to skip that meeting date.
>
>  
>
> Yes, I'm serious.
>
>  
>
> Dean

---

From: "Frank Ellermann" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 19:27:15 +0100

Janet P Gunn wrote:

> A quick google search finds multiple restaurants in the villages
> of Saggart (adjacent to the golf course) and Rathcoole (2k away)

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=l&q=restaurant&near=53.282972,-6.442966&ll=53.282972,-6.442966&z=13

Better don't try that with Google maps... ;-)

---

From: Dean Willis <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 12:29:34 -0600

> competition or just casual golf :-) ?

Ok, if IETFers are playing golf en-masse, I'm bringing a video camera  
to the first hole to film tee-off bloopers.

I was traumatized for life while working at a Japanese company and  
being placed in a foursome with a popular engineer who was rotating  
home and in whose honor we were holding a golf tournament. Of course,  
I almost but not quite completely missed the ball on the first tee.  
Maybe 20 or so of the other engineers and their spouses videotaped  
it. Afterwards, we went back to the office and they played tapes of  
me whiffing the ball from different angles while everybody drank far  
too much Kirin and laughed until they fell down.

And that's how I got to be this way.

--
Dean

---

From: "Andrew G. Malis" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 14:39:37 -0500

Stuart and Ray,

I called the hotel directly to make my reservations. Just mentioned
the IETF and got the group rate. Note that $130 is for a single room -
I was quoted $160 for two people (Ray, is that correct?).  Also, I was
told that cancellation is 48 hours with with no penalties.

Cheers,
Andy

2008/2/1 Ray Pelletier <[email-masked]>:
> I was disappointed to learn that reservations are non cancellable and non
> refundable!Our contract provides that the reservations are cancellable,
> refundable and substitutes permitted.
> • For single adult reservations the Management reserve the right to provide
> guests with a single room instead of double room only in the unlikely event
> of all double rooms being occupied
>
> Stuart Goldman
>

---

From: Ray Pelletier <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 15:28:01 -0500

Andrew G. Malis wrote:

>I was quoted $160 for two people (Ray, is that correct?).
>
160 is correct for the Double Rate.

>  Also, I was
Contract states: can cancel the reservation without penalty until 3 days 
prior to check-in;  cancellation less than 3 days prior to the event or 
non-arrival or no-show, the Hotel holds the right to charge the 
individuals one nights stay as cancellation fees.

Ray

---

From: "Andrew G. Malis" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 16:12:32 -0500

Ray,

Thanks - and also thanks to everyone that pointed out that I used $
when I meant € ... just typing too fast for my own good.

Cheers,
Andy

On Feb 1, 2008 3:28 PM, Ray Pelletier <[email-masked]> wrote:
> non-arrival or no-show, the Hotel holds the right to charge the individuals
> one nights stay as cancellation fees.
>
> Ray
>
>
> Cheers,
> Andy
>
> Pelletier
> •
> Cancellations will not be accepted for online bookings
>
> • Check in time :
> after 1400 hrs
>
> • These
> rates are not available for groups or conferences.
>
> • Rates are non
> commissionable.
>
> • For
> single adult reservations the Management reserve the right to provide
> guests
> with a single room instead of double room only in the unlikely event
> of all
> Ietf mailing
> list

---

From: Ray Pelletier <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 13:17:46 -0500

As a result of incorrect data on the Citywest Hotel website there have 
been some questions asked.  Here is the correct information based upon 
the contract with the hotel.

Ray Pelletier
IETF Administrative Director

Citywest Contract with IETF  http://www.citywesthotel.com/site/index.aspx

1. Room Rates - Single: 130 EUR: Double: 160 EUR; Breakfast, Internet 
and taxes are included

2. Guest substitution permitted

3. Promotion Code: IETF

4. Guest Cancellation
Individuals can cancel the reservation without penalty until 3 days 
prior to check-in / arrival. In case of cancellation less than 3 days 
prior to the event or non-arrival or no-show, the Hotel holds the right 
to charge the individuals one nights stay as cancellation fees.

5. Check In - Check Out.  Hotel check-in is 15:00 hrs. Check-out is to 
be completed by 11:00 AM however Hotel shall reasonably accommodate 
early arrivals and late departures of the international attendees based 
on availability.

6. Non-smoking Rooms.  The Hotel's guestroom should be at least 95% 
non-smoking in inventory.

7. Renovation.  As of the date of the signing of this contract, Hotel 
has no plans for renovation and remodeling.

8. Difficulties with reservations can be addressed to Melissa at 
[email-masked]

Ray Pelletier wrote:

> The IAOC is pleased to announce Dublin as the site for IETF 72 from 27 
> July to 1 Aug 2008. This will be the first time the IETF has held its 
> meeting in Ireland.
>
> International Conference destinations. The four star Citywest Hotel is 
> only 20km from Dublin airport and 15km from Dublin City Centre." 
> "Citywest is the complete corporate and leisure resort offering superb 
> facilities for conference and leisure visitors including: 4,000 
> capacity conference centre, 1,314 hotel rooms, suites and 
> self-contained suites, lively bars and restaurants, a state of the art 
> leisure centre and two superb Christy O’Connor Jnr designed golf 
> courses. "
>
> Rooms are 130 EUR which includes breakfast and Internet access. Only 
> 1,000 rooms have been reserved on the peak nights. Don't get shut out! 
> This will likely be the best attended meeting of 2008, and many will 
> arrive early or stay late to take advantage of all that Dublin has to 
> offer. http://www.visitdublin.com/ Be sure to mention IETF when you 
> book your reservation.
>
> Only 5 weeks until IETF 71 in Philadelphia - a good time to register [ 
> http://www3.ietf.org/meetings/71-IETF.html ] and join our host, 
> Comcast, at the social at the beautiful Philadelphia Museum of Art 
> [http://ietf71.comcast.net/?page_id=12 ].
>
> See you in Philly and Dublin!
>
> Ray Pelletier
> IETF Administrative Director
>
>
>

---

From: "GOLDMAN, STUART O \(STUART\)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 11:31:39 -0600

Folks,

I was disappointed to learn that reservations are non cancellable and non refundable!

• Management reserve the right to assign guests to rooms in either the Citywest Main or Golf Hotels depending on availability

• For single adult reservations the Management reserve the right to provide guests with a single room instead of double room only in the unlikely event of all double rooms being occupied

Stuart Goldman

Alcatel-Lucent 

+1 602 493 8438

 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Dean Willis
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 8:38 PM
To: Ray Pelletier
Cc: IETF Discussion
Subject: Re: IETF 72 --> Dublin!

On Jan 31, 2008, at 3:56 PM, Ray Pelletier wrote:

 

Dublin.

Yes, I'm serious.

this sort of location.

--

Dean

Ietf mailing list

[email-masked]

---

From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 17:11:05 -0500

Dear Stuart;

> I was disappointed to learn that reservations are non cancellable  
Maybe you missed this message from Ray Pelletier :

-----

Ray Pelletier

Citywest Contract with IETF  http://www.citywesthotel.com/site/ 
index.aspx

3. Promotion Code: IETF

4. Guest Cancellation

-----

Of course, our contract supersedes whatever the website says.

Regards
Marshall

> • Management reserve the right to assign guests to rooms in either  
> the Citywest Main or Golf Hotels depending on availability
>
> • For single adult reservations the Management reserve the right  
> to provide guests with a single room instead of double room only in  
> the unlikely event of all double rooms being occupied
>
>
>
> Stuart Goldman
>
> Alcatel-Lucent
>
> Behalf Of Dean Willis

---

From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 08:37:39 -0800

Ray,

Every time the IETF has been held in an isolated venue, the experience has been 
problematic.

The descriptions of the venue make clear that, once again, the IETF is meeting 
in a ghetto.  Periodic bus service doesn't counteract that.

Can you discuss the priorities that led to choosing an isolated venue again?

d/

-- 

   Dave Crocker
   Brandenburg InternetWorking
   bbiw.net

---

From: Ole Jacobsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 08:57:19 -0800 (PST)

Dave,

Not wishing to speak for Ray, let me give some general observations:

1. IETF meetings require BOTH a suitable venue (meeting rooms) AND a 
   host organization.

2. The host organization have a large say in location (city) 
   selection, for a number of reasons. We are going to Philadelphia
   because that is where the HQ of our host is located, for example.

3. While "isolated" venues may be "problematic", there is always a 
   tradeoff between a suitable venue (again meeting rooms) and its
   distance to nearby hotels and other facilities. In the case of 
   Dublin, it is anticipated that most attendees will stay in the
   main hotel. Having only been party to some of the discussions
   around this particular venue I can only say that CityWest was
   considered to be by far the best alternative --- in Dublin.

Meeting venue selection is a bit like engineering itself: You need to 
make tradeoffs between different requirements. Gold is an excellent 
conductor, but you won't find a lot of gold power distribution systems
for reasons I hope are obvious. Alumi(ni)num seems to be the material
of choice at least for the high-power stuff.

Ole

Ole J. Jacobsen
Editor and Publisher,  The Internet Protocol Journal
Cisco Systems
Tel: +1 408-527-8972   Mobile: +1 415-370-4628
E-mail: [email-masked]  URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj

---

From: Andy Bierman <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 09:15:55 -0800

> Can you discuss the priorities that led to choosing an isolated venue again?

This choice of venue does not alter my decision process for
attending IETF 72 at all.  Of course downtown locations are better,
but could this be worse than Danvers?  ;-)

However, there are obvious logistical concerns, especially at lunch time.
Is 90 minutes really enough time to bus into town, eat lunch, and get back?
Without lots of frequent shuttles, people will be forced to rent a car.
I would rather pay a little extra in the meeting fee for shuttles
than rent a car for the week.

Andy

---

From: Edward Lewis <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 13:29:40 -0500

>in a ghetto.  Periodic bus service doesn't counteract that.

I really have a hard time being sympathetic to this complaint.  If 
the purpose of the IETF is open discussion and cross-pollination, 
what does it matter where we are so long as there's comfortable 
access to the expertise needed?  Is there an unwritten requirement 
that IETFs are placed to afford us sightseeing?  To afford us access 
to restaurants?

One of the early negative comments on the site made light of the fact 
that it was a golf resort[0].  Physical activity is to be 
discouraged?  Yet another questioned the distance from outside 
restaurants[1] - apparently "many fine lunches and dinners" is 
required, exercise is immoral.

BTW - I have no knowledge of the venue, I've never been to Ireland. 
I'm reacting to seeing these complaints pile up over the years about 
nearly everywhere we have been.

I am a regular attendee at many other conference series.  Although 
some series face greater logistical challenges (like venues 
cancelling late in the planning, under powered metro and hotel 
infrastructures, etc.) and pose less convenient travel arrangements 
for the average attendee (using places off the "main grid"), I hear 
much less whining from the attendees there than I hear about IETF 
arrangements.

Calling any venue that I have ever been in for any kind of a 
conference "a ghetto" is quite an insult to folks that do live in 
"ghettos" or other unfortunate places that I have seen.  I don't know 
if it is true now, but as of a few years ago, the IETF had never 
ventured to a country or economy where the expected life span of a 
person was below the global mean/average.  Other conferences do 
regularly, "even ICANN."  That's where you can see a ghetto - on the 
way from the airport to the 5-star hotel.

(Pointers to mail just to say I'm not making this up.)

[0] - can't find this in the archive, so here's the copy in my IETF folder:

At 21:37 -0600 1/31/08, $someone wrote:

...
>And no, I don't play golf, which appears to be the entire focus of
...

[1] this is in the archives:
      http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg50069.html.
-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
NeuStar

Mail archives, backups.  Sometimes I think the true beneficiaries of
standards work are the suppliers of disk drives.
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From: "Daniel Brown" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 13:53:30 -0500

> that IETFs are placed to afford us sightseeing?  To afford us access

    I'd like to chime in and remind everyone of one of the basic
principles of the IETF in this regard, as well.  Just yesterday I was
evangelizing the group to an individual from whom I think the
organization can benefit greatly, but who had little knowledge of the
group as a whole.  Thus, I pointed him to the "Tao of the IETF"[1].
As directly-relevant to this issue, I think it's important to remember
that we *should not* limit conventions to "nice" areas.  Safe, of
course, but we don't need to always spoil ourselves with full
amenities, golfing, water parks, casinos, and the like.

    The points I refer to within the "Tao" are twofold.  My apologies
for sounding preachy, as I know it will look to some like I'm quoting
scripture.

    First, from Section 3:
        "In many ways, the IETF runs on the beliefs of its
participants. One of the 'founding beliefs' is embodied in an early
quote about the IETF from David Clark: 'We reject kings, presidents
and voting. We believe in rough consensus and running code'.
        "The IETF is really about its participants. Because of the
unrestrictive membership policies, IETF particpants come from all over
the world and from many different parts of the Internet industry."

        To me, that says that we need the input of EVERYONE, not just
the select few who can afford to attend conferences in ritzy areas.
It also means that the conferences should (as they do) be held at
various locations around the world - including "ghetto"-like places.

    Secondly, from 4.11:
        "There are many people who have been very active in the IETF
who have never attended an IETF meeting."

        The issue may not be money for a majority of the participants,
but why preclude those for whom it actually is?  If we choose to hold
meetings only in places that offer entertainment and vacation-like
distractions, not only will the price likely be higher and more
out-of-reach for lower-income participants, but then it seems to me as
though we're getting out of the scope and goal of the gathering
itself: to teach, learn, and share ideas.... not to go on vacation
with geek buddies. ;-P

    Bottom line: I think if we limit venues to places where generally
only the privileged congregate to spend money on food and wine, while
the largest complaint is having to walk a block to the hall, we're
outwardly stating that we don't value the talents of those who were
born into poverty - or who are even considered lower-middle-class.

    If what goes on outside of the convention we're there to attend is
more important than what's inside those walls, I'd rather stay home.

    "And that's all I have to say about that."  - Forest Gump

-- 
</Dan>

Daniel P. Brown
Senior Unix Geek
<? while(1) { $me = $mind--; sleep(86400); } ?>
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From: Theodore Tso <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 14:27:13 -0500

> that IETFs are placed to afford us sightseeing?  To afford us access 

Well, many IETF'ers get tired of eating at the same hotel restaurant,
day after day, for the whole week.  Also a common problem is that many
hotel restaurants are not well equipped to deal with a very large
number of people all showing up at the resturant at the same time (+/-
10 minutes), thus flooding the kitchen with orders and resulting in
glacial service times.  I remember one of the first times we were at
Minneapolis, and I made a mistake of eating at the hotel restaurant
for lunch, and the food not showing up at the table until something
like 5 or 10 minutes before the next working group meeting was
supposed to start.  Needless to say, that was the last time I
frequented that hotel restaurant the whole week!  Fortunately in
Minneapolis there were other restaurant options that were a close walk
away from the hotel.

> much less whining from the attendees there than I hear about IETF 

The IETF is somewhat unique in that it is a fairly large event that
still has fixed meeting slots so that everyone shows up for lunch at
roughly the same time.  That's not so much the case at a trade show,
for example, and many conferences are smaller.  But basic issues such
as access to restaurants and the ability to serve N hundred people in
a short period of time are important for anyone who does meeting
planning.

There are other solutions, such as buffet service, but it is an issue.

> Yet another questioned the distance from outside 

Heh.  I consider myself a fairly serious foodie[1], but most of the
time when I go to conferences and meetings, especially at lunch time,
it's usually a food court style restaurant that I'll frequent, because
it's (a) fast, and (b) convenient.  Besides, there really isn't time
for a proper 12 course tasting menu if you want to get back in time
for the evening meetings or BOF's.  :-)

But what's really, really, annoying for me is if the only restaurant
around is a super expensive restaurant at an hotel, where service is
slow and you end up being late to the after-lunch or evening working
group meetings as a result.  Being at a resort hotel often adds insult
to injury, because (a) the food is priced comparable to food served at
Aquavit or the French Laundry, but (b) the quality of the food is cr*p
and certainly not worth the $$$ that you spend *because* it is at a
resort location.  

For me, I'll take business-class hotel like a Hilton or a Doubletree
any day.... and even better if it is adjacent to a mall with a food
court.  When I go to an conference or a standards meeting, it's to get
work done, not to do fine dining or lounge at a resort setting.  And
if I'm going to pay $$$ for an expensive restaurant, I want to get my
money's worth, which is rarely the case at most hotel restaurants.

						- Ted

[1] http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2007/10/08/sous-vide-revisited/
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From: "Dan Harkins" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 11:29:43 -0800 (PST)

Hi Edward,

> that IETFs are placed to afford us sightseeing?  To afford us access

  Think about why a beer in a bar in a city center costs 1/4 the price
of a beer in the airport of that same city-- captive audience, it's not
like you can go anywhere else.

  Now, this IETF is at a premier golf resort, 15km outside of city
center. That means we'll be a captive audience and we will all eat at
the hotel restaurant day in and day out and most likely pay far more
than we should.

  The issue isn't about sightseeing, although that's always nice, it's
about forcing people to choose between the same overpriced food you ate
for the past two days and possibly missing a session (so you can go out
and get a reasonable meal at a reasonable price).

[snip]
> way from the airport to the 5-star hotel.

  Please. A ghetto is a homogeneous region for some sort of homogeneity.
That could be ethnic but "ghetto" is not necessarily some slur against
poor people or people of some ethnic background. In this case the ghetto
is going to be golfers, most likely affluent ones, in their plus-fours
and some plaid nightmare of an outfit.

  We've already lost the word "niggardly" and the phrase "chocolate
soldier", neither of which have ethnic or racial connotation, to
political correctness. Let's not toss out "ghetto" too.

  Dan.

---

From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 11:54:43 -0800

> 1. IETF meetings require BOTH a suitable venue (meeting rooms) AND a 

Sorry, but it has been demonstrated that a host is not required.

It has further been demonstrated that the host (or, rather, the sponsor) does 
not have to be co-resident with venue.

>    because that is where the HQ of our host is located, for example.

This has been the classic model, yes, but recently has been considerably loosened.

>    considered to be by far the best alternative --- in Dublin.

Hence the question about priorities.  Start with declaring Dublin the venue and 
it well might be true that this is the best venue.  Start with a requirement 
that the venue have ample resources within walking distance and Dublin well 
might be disqualitied.

It's all about priorities.

And no, I would not have queried if I hadn't felt that attendee convenience were 
not the priority that should be highest, but that it appears not to have been 
for the Dublin event.

d/

-- 

   Dave Crocker

---

From: Janet P Gunn <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 15:06:56 -0500

I am still not convinced that there is a shortage of other places for 
lunch.

Citywest (that the hotel is part of)
http://www.citywest.ie/
is a large business campus (including some companies that will be familiar 
to IETF participants)

In their list of amenities it says that there is "a choice of restaurants 
and coffee shops"  within the complex and nearby. As there would have to 
be to support a large white collar employee base..

And I found several well reviewed lunchtime restaurants (including a food 
hall with well reviewed "takeaway") in Saggart and Rathcoole.
e.g.,
http://www.menupages.ie/Dublin/Restaurants/Saggart
http://www.menupages.ie/Dublin/Restaurants/Rathcoole
and a little further away
http://www.menupages.ie/Dublin/Restaurants/Newcastle
http://www.menupages.ie/Dublin/Restaurants/Lucan

Personally, I am not worried about finding places for lunch outside the 
hotel.

Janet

The resort may be "self contained", but it appears to be by no means 
"isolated".

Janet

---

From: Ole Jacobsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 12:09:56 -0800 (PST)

Dave,

(Reducing the CCs a bit)

> not have to be co-resident with venue.

"Has been demonstrated" does not mean that this is always possible. 
And yes, I meant SPONSOR rather than host in the classic sense. We 
have indeed had hostless meetings, but a number of factors have to 
come together to make this work.

> This has been the classic model, yes, but recently has been 

Sure, but again, this depends on the host/sponsor. We cannot always 
dictate these things --- unless of course we find a completely 
DIFFERENT funding model, but that's outside the scope of this 
particular discussion.

> that the venue have ample resources within walking distance and Dublin well 

It was decided that "Europe" was in the rotation cycle this time 
around.

CityWest has, from what I understand, a number of bars and restaurants 
which will serve us well during the meeting. There will be shuttle 
buses (a la Dallas) for the evening. If you found the Dallas venue to 
be completely unacceptable (flooding nothwithstanding), then I'm 
afraid you'll probably hate CityWest too. Personally I found Dallas to 
be just fine.

> not the priority that should be highest, but that it appears not to have been 

Attendee convienience is a concept we could debate. Having the 
majority of the hotel rooms close to the meeting rooms is high on my 
list at least.

Ole

---

From: Dan York <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 15:19:55 -0500

While I agree with the sentiments of Ted and others[1], isn't this  
all rather a moot point?
I would expect Ray has already signed a locked-in contract with the  
hotel/resort in Dublin, correct?
Is there realistically any chance to change it?

If the Dublin venue can NOT be changed at this point, should we  
perhaps focus on how we can get to restaurants?  Can we get more  
shuttles? Is there taxi service available? etc.?

My 2 cents,
Dan

[1] Like Ted, I go to a standards meeting to engage in f-2-f  
discussions. If there is any "sightseeing" it is usually in my walk  
from my hotel to the conf center or perhaps at the social event.  All  
I really ask for is a decent hotel room, good meeting rooms, decent  
snacks, hot tea, good WiFi and easy access to multiple restaurants so  
that when 1,000+ standards geeks all break at the same time for lunch  
or dinner we're not all standing in line at the same restaurant  
trying to get served quickly so we can go back into our meetings.  
IETF 70 in Vancouver and IETF66 in Montreal were both great examples  
to me where there were plenty of choices within easy walking distance.

-- 
Dan York, CISSP, Director of Emerging Communication Technology
Office of the CTO    Voxeo Corporation     [email-masked]
Phone: +1-407-455-5859  Skype: danyork  http://www.voxeo.com
Blogs: http://blogs.voxeo.com  http://www.disruptivetelephony.com

Bring your web applications to the phone.
Find out how at http://evolution.voxeo.com

---

From: Iljitsch van Beijnum <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 21:19:04 +0100

> 1. IETF meetings require BOTH a suitable venue (meeting rooms) AND a

I sometimes wonder how cheap and convenient IETF meetings would be if  
the fee reflected just the meeting costs, the hotel room fees wouldn't  
be used to subsidize the venue price and venue selection only  
considered price and convenience for the IETF goers and not a host.

Too bad the IETF hasn't been able to figure out a different business  
model.
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---

From: Eliot Lear <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 21:53:16 +0100

> considered price and convenience for the IETF goers and not a host.

Those aren't the only criteria.  Try finding a place in Europe that can 
fit our plenary and ALSO house the number of WG meetings we have.  That 
ain't easy.

I've said this privately and I guess I'll say it publicly.  I'm no fan 
of CityWest.  But...

It's Ray's job to make the call.  It's the IAOC's job to see that he 
does his job well.  I think Ray has at least earned the benefit of the 
doubt.  Perhaps this is best viewed retrospectively since contracts are 
signed?

Eliot

---

From: Eliot Lear <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 21:55:36 +0100

I wrote:
> doubt.  Perhaps this is best viewed retrospectively since contracts 
> are signed?

I am told the following by someone who should know:

> Actually, Ray really does NOT make these decisions in the absence of 
> much debate and analysis within the IAOC and its various committees.

Eliot

---

From: Iljitsch van Beijnum <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 22:27:27 +0100

On 6 feb 2008, at 21:53, Eliot Lear wrote:

>> I sometimes wonder how cheap and convenient IETF meetings would be  
>> if  the fee reflected just the meeting costs, the hotel room fees  
>> wouldn't  be used to subsidize the venue price and venue selection  
>> only  considered price and convenience for the IETF goers and not a  
>> host.

> Those aren't the only criteria.  Try finding a place in Europe that  
> can fit our plenary and ALSO house the number of WG meetings we  
> have.  That ain't easy.

Well, a few years I thought I had found just such a place: a  
convention center with 500 hotel rooms within five minutes walking  
distance and many more a little further away. However, even simple  
questions as to how many hotel rooms were required these days were  
never answered. Comments from others who spent considerable effort  
trying to find a European location for an IETF meeting tell me there  
was significant room for improvement in the venue selection process  
some years ago. I hope this improvement has since happened.

> does his job well.  I think Ray has at least earned the benefit of  
> the doubt.  Perhaps this is best viewed retrospectively since  
> contracts are signed?

I think the most helpful approach at this point is to find hotels and  
restaurants close to the venue for those of us who don't want to be in  
the meeting hotel for 4.5 days straight, and then see what  
transportation options are available.

I remember much shorter bus trips in Dublin taking a long time: the  
streets are narrow and can be busy. Commuting from the city center is  
probably not a reasonable option.

Maybe Ray can arrange for IETF'ers on a budget to pitch tents on the  
edge of the golf course and forage from the surrounding country.  :-)   
I did this in 2005 in the Irish countryside (well, maybe not the  
foraging part) and it was a lot of fun:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/technokitten/sets/1393969/
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From: "Richard Shockey" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 16:48:15 -0500

>  doubt. 

I don't think so ..given the perfectly rational questions that are being
asked about this particular sub-optimal site, the community has a perfect
right to ask pointed questions about why it was selected and what if any
were the alternatives.

The deal is done, I agree with that, but there are aspects of this
particular selection that are different from any other I've seen in the IETF
in the 10 years or so I've been attending.

Sites that are substantially distant from city centers or major
transportation hubs IMHO don't work for the IETF community irrespective of
whether they are in North America, Asia or ECMA.

 Perhaps this is best viewed retrospectively since contracts

---

From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 13:51:45 -0800

Dan York wrote:
> While I agree with the sentiments of Ted and others[1], isn't this all 
> rather a moot point?  

So it's probably a good thing that my query made no mention of trying to change 
the Dublin arrangements.

I asked about decision criteria, in the hope that they can be improved.

This isn't about changing Dublin, criticizing anyone, or doing anything more 
than improving the ranking of criteria.

Every time the IETF venue is isolated, it is a logistical problem during the 
week.  Yet that fact seems to be getting ignored -- or rather, ranked lower than 
other priorities.

 From my own view, the IETF venue should encourage attendance and interaction. 
Attendance is affected by convenience of access and cost. Access to less 
expensive hotels *that are as convenient as the primary hotel* is significant to 
this end.

Interaction is affected by the ability to break into casual small group 
discussions.  Having a sterile or monotonous or expensive environment works 
against this. Having access to a variety of convenient, alternative places works 
in favor of it.

For those who don't care about being locked into an isolated venue, they won't 
mind having the IETF held among a small set of venues that do have good local 
logistics.  They exist in various places around the world.  Choose a small set 
and rotate among them.

d/
-- 

   Dave Crocker

---

From: Jaap Akkerhuis <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 23:02:18 +0100

I remember staying in Rathcoole about 35 years ago. It was a lovely
rural place. I came back to stay there again. There was at time a
doable bus service to Dublin. Apparently the place has changed a
lot since that time. Looking to the google maps provided by the
home page of the resort, the runway for the small airfield against
which people were opposing because it would disturb the little
people got build in the end. And it seems the the resort is build
on the meadows used by the fairies. I'm afraid that the potheen
will be less available then it used to be. That's progress I assume.
What makes me think the public transport might have improved although
the traffic jams might be a new problem.  That's progress again.
Maybe can rent a bike.

Anyway, it will be fun to go back there.

	jaap

---

From: David Kessens <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 14:02:41 -0800

Dave,

> not the priority that should be highest, but that it appears not to have been 

Maybe you should volunteer for a position on the IAOC if you believe
you can set these priorities better than the people who are
currently responsible for this job.

Quite frankly, I am not looking forward for a resort hotel setting in
the proximity of Dublin as opposed to for example a meeting in Paris.
However, that is just based on personal preferences that don't really
disqualify this location as a good location for a productive meeting
(we don't even know whether there are not a decent number of
restaurants etc. nearby the venue).

On the other hand, considering the origin of Alcatel-Lucent, I have my
suspicions that Paris actually has been considered and didn't work out
for other reasons. I am sure Ray can give us a bit more background why
we ended up in this venue (and why my corporate rate was quite a bit
more attractive than the IETF rate ... )

David Kessens
---

---

From: David Kessens <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 14:20:38 -0800

Richard,

> whether they are in North America, Asia or ECMA.

While I don't particularly like this location, I don't see how you can
imply that it is hard to get to Dublin airport and from there to the
meeting site. Aer Lingus has reasonably priced (for summer time)
direct flights from most large US cities. Most european cities are
served by Aer Lingus and by Ryan Air which is quite possible the
cheapest airline on earth.

David Kessens
---

---

From: Jeroen Massar <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 23:26:18 +0100

Jaap Akkerhuis wrote:
[..]
> And it seems the the resort is build
> on the meadows used by the fairies.

Fairies hebben geen heibel gemaakt want de golf-velden daar liggen er 
super mooi bij.

Er is ook een helicopter landplaats daar, wat wellicht een goede optie is :)

> I'm afraid that the potheen

Een ding wat je dus NIET wilt doen is fietsen in Dublin.

Het gaat best op zich hoor, maar je moet wel heel erg oppassen en het 
liefste over de stoep fietsen. Vooral bussen en taxis hebben namelijk 
nogal de rare neiging om fietsers gewoon maar de kant (lees: muur, paal, 
andere autos) in te drukken. Ik heb er een jaartje gewoont en veel 
gefietst, want dat openbaar vervoer is NIETS, nog erger dan de NS in 
nederland (al is de trein redelijk de paar keer dat ik hem gebruikt 
heb): ze hebben geen echt schema voor de bussen, er komen er dus gerust 
twee achter elkaar en dan heel lang niets, als je je hand niet opsteekt 
stoppen ze niet. Ze vergeten te stoppen, ook al druk je tig keer op de 
knop of zeg je het tegen de chauffeur dat ie hem toch echt gemist heeft 
etc. Oh en dan natuurlijk het verkeer, muur vast want de straten zijn te 
smal en de bussen passen er eigenlijk niet door heen, daarnaast stopt er 
een, en de andere erachter moet dan maar wachten, etc, etc. Ramp dus, 
dus pak je als nederlander lekker de fiets. Aanrader, koop schoenen 
zoals ik heb: 
http://www.underground-cybershop.co.uk/acatalog/info_UR_044_L_BLK.html
Juist ja, zware schoenen met mooie keiharde plastic neuzen en een tikkel 
metaal zodat, als er weer een bus over je tenen rijdt omdat die het leuk 
vind om je de kant in te forceren je iig geen platte tenen overhoudt, 
nee idd deze schoenen deuken niet :)

Platte land, dus in de buurt van dat hotel is het overigens goed te doen 
hoor, want je zit er effectief in de middle of nowhere, maar *in* 
Dublin, probeer de fiets maar niet, taxi is een halve optie, de andere 
manier is de tram nemen, die dan nog half-redelijk rijd.

Enne, vergeet de paraplu niet, want die ga je nodig hebben ;)

Greets,
  Jeroen

---

From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 15:06:52 -0800

David Kessens wrote:
>     Most european cities are served by Aer Lingus and by Ryan
> Air which is quite possible the cheapest airline on earth.

Only because I happened to see this today:

> Airline ordered to pay for booting band The Associated Press Article
> Launched: 02/06/2008 07:08:27 AM PST
> 
> LONDON—A British judge has ordered budget airline Ryanair to pay $7,800 to
> members of a calypso band who were ordered off a plane at gunpoint after
> another passenger said they were acting suspiciously.
> 
> Ryanair said it had not decided whether to appeal the ruling.
> 
> Five members of the London-based Caribbean Steel International band were
> aboard a flight waiting to fly from the island of Sardinia to London on Dec.
> 31, 2006, when a passenger alerted the crew of "suspicious" behavior.
> 
> The band members were sitting separately on the plane, even though they had
> been together in the departure lounge, the passenger reported.
> 
> The men were removed from the plane by Italian police with guns drawn, though
> they were later cleared by airport security. The pilot refused to let them
> back onboard, citing the "anxiety" of the other passengers.
> 
> District Judge Roger Southcombe ruled Tuesday that the men had been
> unreasonably removed from the plane. He awarded them $1,570 each in damages.
> 
> In the judgment, Southcombe said the damages awarded reflected the band
> members' "embarrassment at being the only black persons removed from the
> aircraft at gunpoint for no just reason, their inability to be with their
> families and friends on New Year's Eve and New Year's Day (and) the overnight
> stay in the cold in Liverpool."
> 
> The men were flown to Liverpool and spent the night of Jan. 1 outside the bus
> station after missing the last bus to London.

-- 

   Dave Crocker

---

From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 15:37:07 -0800

> currently responsible for this job.

David,

Maybe a discussion about priorities should be a discussion about priorities 
rather than being treated as some sort of attack?

Or is the current IETF culture such that a participant is considered hostile 
merely by their asking such a question?

> restaurants etc. nearby the venue).

Actually, I believe that has already been discussed.

Please note that I didn't send my query until after the local logistical details 
of the venue were discussed at length.

d/

ps.  Please also note that my original query was simply about the ranking of 
considerations and that, so far, no IETF management folk have responded to that 
focus.

-- 

   Dave Crocker

---

From: "Richard Shockey" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 22:41:07 -0500

My comment said "or" as in one or the other, if you had re read the comment
properly before going snarky. I don't dispute Dublin airport is a useful
transportation hub. I want to know why this particular venue was selected
and what was the criterion used to make the evaluation. That is a simple
question given the legitimate questions many of us are asking.

IMHO it was a bad selection and I think many of us want to make sure it does
NOT happen again. 

That said I love Ireland .. delighted to go there ..but.

>  From: David Kessens [mailto:[email-masked]]
>  Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 5:21 PM
>  To: Richard Shockey
>  Cc: 'IAB'; 'IETF Discussion'; 'IAOC'

---

From: John Levine <[email-masked]>
Date: 7 Feb 2008 05:19:51 -0000

> The descriptions of the venue make clear that, once again, the IETF
> is meeting in a ghetto.  Periodic bus service doesn't counteract
> that.

If you look at the Google map and satellite photos of the venue, there
appears to be quite a lot of residential and commercial development
just east of it.  Perhaps someone who lives in Dublin could let us
know if there are useful facilities there.

Poking around in Google, I see the Citywest Comfort Inn is 3.7km east
with rooms from E79 and the Tower Hotel Dublin is 5.7km east with
rooms from E99, not walkable but reasonable for shared taxis. There
also seem to be several hotels in Tallaght, about 10km away.

I agree that it is not practical to commute very far by road around
Dublin, since the roads tend to be narrow and congested.

R's,
John

---

From: David Kessens <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 21:54:48 -0800

Richard,

> question given the legitimate questions many of us are asking.

By mentioning 'major hub' it appeared as if you were concerned about
that as well while in fact this location is an excellant choice from
that perspective: not only is it easy to get to, but it is also
comparatively cheap for many IETF participants.

> IMHO it was a bad selection and I think many of us want to make sure it does

that really remains to be seen: as many people have mentioned before,
there might actually be some reasonible local food options. In
addition, with a little planning, it should be possible for many of us
to go once or twice to Dublin itself or perhaps stay a day extra. I
admit, not 100% ideal but meetings always have their tradeoffs. In
this case, I certainly see the potential for problems, but on the
other hand, if the connectivity is particularly good, the hotel rooms
a bit better than average and the local restaurant situation a tiny
bit better than what many people expect, one can hardly claim that
this meeting is going to be a disaster. Let's first go there before we
make a judgement that this was a terrible mistake, the data so far
simply doesn't justify that (yet ;-)). 

David Kessens 
PS anyways, maybe the local/Dublin restaurant scene is really not what we
   should be looking for in Ireland: should we not care more
   about the local brews ?
---
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From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 22:25:28 -0800

>    should be looking for in Ireland: should we not care more

Open taps in each meeting room might, indeed, eliminate any complaints about the 
venue.

d/

-- 

   Dave Crocker

---

From: Tony Finch <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 13:47:07 +0000

On Wed, 6 Feb 2008, David Kessens wrote:
>
> Most european cities are served by Aer Lingus and by Ryan Air which is
> quite possible the cheapest airline on earth.

Ryanair and Aer Lingus are the amongst the worst airlines in Europe.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1206/airline.html

Tony.
-- 
f.a.n.finch  <[email-masked]>  http://dotat.at/
FAEROES SOUTHEAST ICELAND: WEST SEVERE GALE 9 TO VIOLENT STORM 11, BACKING
SOUTHWEST 6 TO GALE 8, BECOMING CYCLONIC IN FAEROES LATER. HIGH OR VERY HIGH
BECOMING VERY ROUGH. RAIN OR SHOWERS, SOME WINTRY. POOR BECOMING GOOD.
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---

From: Fred Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 16:53:27 -0800

On Feb 6, 2008, at 9:15 AM, Andy Bierman wrote:

> However, there are obvious logistical concerns, especially at lunch  
> time. Is 90 minutes really enough time to bus into town, eat lunch,  
> and get back?

Lunch is always a problem. That's why we have a sandwich stand - to  
diminish exactly this concern.
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From: Andy Bierman <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 17:56:32 -0800

> diminish exactly this concern.

If 1000+ people are all trying to get lunch at the same time,
a hotel coffee shop and a sandwich stand will probably not cut it.
Adjusting the schedule for a 2 hour lunch would be better if
traveling was the best option for lunch cost/selection.

Andy

---

From: Bill Manning <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 20:55:08 -0800

> Minneapolis there were other restaurant options that were a close walk

	convience is one thing, medical/religious options are much more
	constrained in a "remote" location.  for those who have food
	allegies, or other dietary restrictions, this could be problematic.

-bill

-- 
--bill

Opinions expressed may not even be mine by the time you read them, and
certainly don't reflect those of any other entity (legal or otherwise).

---

From: Ray Pelletier <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 11:18:38 -0500

All;
So, let me provide a little more background for the IAOC decision to 
hold IETF 72 in Dublin.

There were 3 venues under consideration - Geneva, Paris and Dublin. 

Each of these Cities had venues with available dates.  After 
pre-qualifying each, a meeting and tech qualification team visitied the 
Geneva and Dublin venues. An IETF meeting had previously been held at 
the Paris facility.

For the Geneva convention center under consideration, the hotel blocks 
were small and only one was within walking distance.  We would have 
needed to contract with approximately 10 hotels in order to meet minimum 
requirements of hotel block. Hotels were spread out, some in the city, 
while others (the larger hotels) were close to the airport.  Guest room 
rates were the most expensive of the three options.  Very likely that 
the meeting space costs could have been covered, but not the network 
infrastructure. No Host.

The Paris facility quoted the most expensive meeting space costs at over 
$200,000, as well as the most expensive food and beverage costs and 
second most expensive guest room rates.  Network infrastructure costs 
not covered. No Host.

The Dublin facility has a Host to cover meeting space costs, the Welcome 
Reception, as well as providing the network infrastructure for the 
meeting at its expense.  The Citywest HQ hotel has a large room block 
(1,000 on a peak night) and the best room rates of the three, as well as 
qualified meeting space and "from the technical perspective, City West 
is the recommended site" (input from the tech visit).  Biggest con - 20 
km from the city, which we will try to ameliorate by providing shuttle 
buses to the Temple Bar area of Dublin Monday through Thursday.

Dublin was recommended by the Meetings Subcommittee and selected by the 
IAOC.  It provides a good meeting facility and guest rooms under one 
roof, with a Host, and the least financial risk to the organizations.

If you want to see Dublin, and I recommend it, consider arriving 2 - 3 
days early, or staying after the meeting at a hotel downtown near 
Grafton Street and Trinity College.  The college even has dorm rooms 
available at very reasonable rates, if you don't mind roughing it a bit..

This meeting will have the highest attendance of the year. Many hotel 
reservations have already been made.  It's not too late to make yours.  
http://www.citywesthotel.com/

Ray Pelletier

---

From: Stephen Farrell <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 16:49:29 +0000

> available at very reasonable rates, if you don't mind roughing it a bit..

And if you want to ask about that feel free to mail me or grab me
in Philly.

We'll gladly sell you a room in Trinity College for about €70 [1]
though I wouldn't recommend trying to commute from here.

For a few quid more, you can ask for a long room [2] :-)

Cheers,
Stephen.

[1] http://www.tcd.ie/accommodation/Visitors/
[2] http://www.tcd.ie/Library/heritage/longroom.php

---

From: Ray Pelletier <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 12:01:36 -0500

The Citywest Contract with IETF provides;

4. Guest Cancellation

Ray

Wojciech Dec (wdec) wrote:

> Hi Ray,
>  
> I don't want to prolong this thread much more, but the booking terms & 
> conditions at the City West are unusually strict, if not incorrect 
> (note the reference to the groups/conferences).
> Here's what I get when using the IETF booking code:
>  
> ---snip---
> . Bookings are non refundable and non transferable.
> . Cancellations will not be accepted for online bookings
> . Check in time : after 1400 hrs
> . Check out time : before 1200 hrs
> . Rates are per room per night.
> . Rates are for accommodation only unless otherwise stated.
> . These rates are not available for groups or conferences.
> . Rates are non commissionable.
> . Management reserve the right to assign guests to rooms in either the 
> . For single adult reservations the Management reserve the right to 
> ---snip---
> Can you confirm that indeed these are the terms we'll have to agree to 
> (the non refundable, non cancellable condition is particularly annoying).
>  
> Thanks,
> Woj.
>

---

From: Ole Jacobsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 09:08:58 -0800 (PST)

I can confirm that the confirmation letter from the hotel does not 
reflect the terms stated by Ray, but this is presumably just a 
limitation of their automated system. For example, the letter says:
"These rates are not available for groups or conferences," which
is exactly the opposite of what's going on here.

Ole

Ole J. Jacobsen

---

From: Richard Barnes <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 14:33:32 -0500

Ole,

I noticed the same thing when I was making my booking.  As a precaution, 
I put a note in the "Comments" block saying that I expect the terms of 
the IETF contract to be followed, with a copy of the terms from Ray's email.

--RB

---

From: Fred Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 12:06:44 -0800

> Is there an unwritten requirement that IETFs are placed to afford  
> us sightseeing?

Maybe we should add a pointer to the local "things to see and do in  
Ireland" page to the Meetings page.

As an engineer, I would very much encourage people to stay an extra  
day and tour NewGrange. Imagine the engineering challenge. One day,  
some guy walks into a valley with a few rolling hills in it:

     http://picasaweb.google.com/FredBakerSBA/ 
SaintPatrickSDayInIreland/photo#5141698100648551458

He decides that there just really needs to be a passage tomb in which  
light shines on the magic spot for 17 minutes on the winter equinox  
and maybe the day before and after. He then proceeds to build a hill,  
by mounding rocks in corbel construction (which is one way that  
cathedral builders build arches, the other common one being keystone  
construction), covering it with dirt, and decorating it with other  
rocks brought from a site 80 km away.

     http://picasaweb.google.com/FredBakerSBA/ 
SaintPatrickSDayInIreland/photo#5141698147893191794

So, no problem. there is no such thing as an engineering drawing. But  
he explains to his son (who 20 years later explains to his son, who  
20 years later explains to his son, who 20 years later explains to  
his son, who 20 years later explains to his son) what he wants built,  
and ends with the punchline "when all is said and done, the light  
stops here". The community walks 80 km to get rocks, carries baskets  
of dirt, and even picks up small things like the notion of putting  
gravel between the layers of rock to prevent them from grinding each  
other to sand. The result of his effort is a passage tomb that  
survives to this day, 5000 years later.

I think the engineering is fascinating...

More pictures at

     http://picasaweb.google.com/FredBakerSBA/SaintPatrickSDayInIreland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newgrange
http://www.dublinbus.ie/sightseeing/index.aspx
http://www.irelandby.com/sightseeing/sightseeing_dublin.htm
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---

From: Joe Abley <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 15:31:28 -0500

> the IETF contract to be followed, with a copy of the terms from  

Heh, and I thought I was the only one pedantic enough to do that :-)

Joe

---

From: "Richard Shockey" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 15:31:34 -0500

>  > Is there an unwritten requirement that IETFs are placed to afford

You mean this isn't the Individual Enlightenment and Travel Foundation
mailing list ... oh so sorry.

---

From: "David Harrington" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 16:00:26 -0500

I think the complaints would simply be slurred more, and we might have
to worry about lynch mobs (which would remind me of the reasonableness
of this discussion so far).

dbh 

> Behalf Of Dave Crocker
> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 1:25 AM
> To: David Kessens
> Cc: 'IAOC'; IAB; 'IETF Discussion'; Richard Shockey

---

From: Theodore Tso <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 16:22:32 -0500

> of this discussion so far).

To be fair, I think most of the concerns raised on this discussion
have been relatively reasonable, although perhaps people have been
worrying without having enough information.  It appears that they may
be some restaurants other than those in the hotel; whether they are
sufficient is unclear at the moment, but either way, the die is seems
to be cast and even if there are not sufficient restaurants, it seems
too late to do anything about it.  (Except maybe for adjusting the
schedule so people have time to take the buses into Dublin, or some
such, if it really is an issue.)

One sugestion that I would make for the people who are tasked to do
site surveys is to collect a list of resturants nearby, with
addresses, type of cuisine, average cost for lunch/dinner, distance
from the hotel, and number of diners they can handle.  I suspect the
concierge for the conference hotel has the information on hand
already, so collecting it shouldn't be difficult; just asking them to
make the information available should be all that's needed.

Placing this information on the web site would be extremely useful for
IETF attendees who are trying to determine where they can get
sustenance without mobbing the concierge, and it would also serve to
ease the minds of people who might have various dietary restrictions,
or just want to make sure that there are alternatives beyond buying
lunchmeat at a local convenience store or paying $24 for a coffee and
a pastry at an expensive resort restaurant.  (I've paid that much in
Venice when on vacation; never again...)

	   	   	       	   - Ted

---

From: "Clint Chaplin" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 14:02:55 -0800

It strikes me that this discussion could use some of the same methods
that are promulgated in "Moose Turd Pie"
<http://www.utahphillips.org/stuff/mooseturdpie.mp3>: if a person
complains, they're required to take over the job.

-- 
Clint (JOATMON) Chaplin
Principal Engineer
Corporate Standardization (US)
SISA
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---

From: Joel Jaeggli <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 11:50:21 -0800

Dan Harkins wrote:
> political correctness. 

If you happen to be norwegian and disinclined to pay the frost giants 
for their efforts on your construction project, they may apply it as a 
label. It does have an ethnic connotation, just not the one that's 
generally supposed... :/

> Let's not toss out "ghetto" too.
> 
>   Dan.
> 
> 
>

---

From: "Mary Barnes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 20:06:40 -0600

Unfortunately, a sandwich stand won't work well for those of us with
dietary restrictions (Kosher, vegetarian, Gluten-Free, Dairy-Free,
sugar-free, etc.).  It is going to be more difficult (and restrictive)
than normal for us to find appropriate food at that location.  As it is,
it can be difficult to find the right places even when we're centrally
located in large cities.  

Other than the food issue, I don't have any concerns about the location
and am looking forward to the meeting, but I do think that the dietary
restrictions should be considered in the planning.  

Mary Barnes

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On
Behalf Of Fred Baker
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 6:53 PM
To: Andy Bierman
Cc: Working Group Chairs; IAB; IETF Discussion; IAOC; Ray Pelletier;
Dave Crocker
Subject: Re: [IAOC] IETF 72 --> Dublin!

---

From: "Wojciech Dec (wdec)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 17:46:21 +0100

Hi Ray,
 
I don't want to prolong this thread much more, but the booking terms &
conditions at the City West are unusually strict, if not incorrect (note
the reference to the groups/conferences).
Here's what I get when using the IETF booking code:
 
---snip---
 
* Bookings are non refundable and non transferable.
* Cancellations will not be accepted for online bookings
* Check in time : after 1400 hrs 
* Check out time : before 1200 hrs 
* Rates are per room per night. 
* Rates are for accommodation only unless otherwise stated. 
* These rates are not available for groups or conferences. 
* Rates are non commissionable.
* Management reserve the right to assign guests to rooms in either the
Citywest Main or Golf Hotels depending on availability
* For single adult reservations the Management reserve the right to
provide guests with a single room instead of double room only in the
unlikely event of all double rooms being occupied
---snip---
 
Can you confirm that indeed these are the terms we'll have to agree to
(the non refundable, non cancellable condition is particularly
annoying).
 
Thanks,
Woj.